Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer went head-to-head on Sky News this evening in the second election debate featuring the prime minister and Labour leader. They faced 20 minutes of questions from Beth Rigby, Sky’s political editor, followed by 25 minutes of questions from the live audience.
Both party leaders made key claims about their plans for the country — we looked at the facts.
• Labour manifesto 2024: the key policies explained
• Conservative manifesto 2024: summary of the key policies
Police numbers
When asked about crime and policing, the prime minister claimed the number of police in the UK is now at a record high. The most recent data, from 2023, shows there were 149,164 police officers.
However, the number of police officers per capita was higher in 2010. The 2023 figures also do not reflect huge falls in the number of PCSOs and special constables between 2010 and 2019.
Pandemic management
A doctor in the audience criticised Rishi Sunak and his predecessor, Boris Johnson, for the government’s handling of the pandemic.
The UK performed very badly compared to other European countries in the early stages of the pandemic, with far more excess deaths than in other places on the Continent.
However, after the quick rollout of the vaccine, the UK fared a bit better, and ended up with fewer excess deaths per million than Italy, but somewhat more than France and Germany.
Mortgage rates
A retired teacher from Grimsby has asked the prime minster about interest and mortgage rates. The latter peaked in the summer of 2023.
The average two-year fixed rate mortgage has soared since 2021.
Migration figures
Sunak says net migration is too high. He claims he reduced the numbers last year. Although 2023’s figures were slightly lower compared to 2022, net migration is still high by historical standards and has been for the majority of the 14 years of Conservative rule.
Small boat crossings
Sunak pledged to reduce small boats crossings. These crossings have risen compared to the same period last year. 2024 is set to be a record year.
Economic growth
One of the pledges Sunak made in January 2023 was to “grow the economy” but this has never been clearly defined.
Growth has been sporadic — the economy contracted in some quarters, falling into recession in late 2023, but in early 2024 growth has been stronger.
However, economic data published today indicated that growth was flat in April.
Sunak’s pledges
Beth Rigby is reminding Sunak of the five pledges he made in January 2023. The first of these pledges was to halve inflation, which Sunak says was his main priority.
That was achieved this in October.
Tory turmoil
The Sky News host Beth Rigby has pointed out the political turmoil in this parliament: three prime ministers, five chancellors, and six health secretaries.
Boris Johnson won the general election in 2019, and was briefly followed by Liz Truss then Sunak in No 10.
The chancellors have been Sajid Javid, Rishi Sunak, Nadhim Zahawi, Kwasi Kwarteng and Jeremy Hunt.
The health secretaries were Matt Hancock, Sajid Javid, Steve Barclay, Therese Coffey, Steve Barclay and the current incumbent is Victoria Atkins.
Rishi Sunak up next
Next up in the debate is the prime minister, Rishi Sunak. We will be looking at his claims too. Because Sunak is running on a track record in government it is easier to fact check his claims than Starmer’s. However, Labour’s manifesto, which is launched tomorrow, will give us a chance to pore over the claims of Starmer’s party in detail.
Private schools
Sir Keir Starmer has been asked about Labour’s proposal to end tax breaks on private schools. The party leader says extra money from this policy would be directly used to fund the recruitment of around 6,000 new teachers in state schools.
He said there are thousands of state school teachers missing in the most important subjects, including maths. PISA scores in England have decreased for all three main subjects, with mathematics seeing the sharpest fall compared to 2018.
Dentist appointments
A woman asked Starmer about “dental deserts” — parts of the country where there is little or no NHS dental provision.
In North Lincolnshire just 38.1 per cent of the local population had seen an NHS dentist in the previous 24 months, according to data collected in June 2023.
The debate is taking place in Grimsby, which is in the North Lincolnshire council area.
In other parts of the country it is lower — in nearby South Kesteven the figure is just 11.3 per cent.
Junior doctor strikes
A junior doctor in the audience asked Sir Keir Starmer about the ongoing strikes.
Starmer says if his party wins power they will negotiate with junior doctors but will not be able to afford a 35 per cent rise, a figure which the audience member disputed.
Pay for doctors at the most junior levels has been almost flat for the past decade.
Given the high levels of inflation in recent years. that means their pay has significantly decreased in real terms.
Nursery shortages and childcare costs
Starmer has pledged to introduce 100,000 new nursery places and 3,000 nurseries. Childcare costs in the South East (including London and east of England) are comfortable the highest in the country.
Child poverty
A woman in the audience has asked Starmer what he would do about child poverty.
Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) data shows the proportion of people living in relative poverty has been fairly flat for working people, but has ticked up a bit for children and pensioners over the last few years.
NHS waiting list
Starmer says Labour will put on 40,000 extra NHS appointments a week to clear waiting list backlogs.
NHS waiting lists have risen considerably since the pandemic.
In January 2023 Rishi Sunak pledged to bring them down. This hasn’t happened, although they have fallen a bit in recent months.
Labour’s plan on taxes
Starmer has ruled out raising taxes “on working people”, as have other Labour ministers during the campaign.
This means income tax, national insurance and VAT.
The Sky News host is pointing out Labour has not mentioned lots of other taxes like capital gains tax, fuel duty and council tax. Starmer is not ruling out increasing any of these.
He says taxes are too high and he wants to reduce them, without being drawn on which ones.
Tax burden
Starmer has said we have seen the highest tax burden in recent years under Conservative rule.
The UK’s total tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 36% compared to 32% in 2004.
The UK’s tax burden remains below that of Germany, France and Nordic countries.
Nationalising energy firms
Starmer is being asked about his u-turn on nationalising energy firms.
He supported this policy in his campaign for Labour leader in 2020.
Starmer says he has changed his mind on this because it would cost tens of billions of pounds and would pay off shareholders rather than making customers’ bills cheaper.
Jeremy Corbyn
Starmer is being repeatedly asked about his support for Jeremy Corbyn who was Labour leader between 2015 and 2019.
Starmer was a prominent member of Corbyn’s cabinet as Shadow Brexit Secretary when Labour fell to a crushing defeat in December 2019.
As a member of the shadow cabinet he was collectively responsible for what was in Labour’s manifesto, which he ran on.
Starmer says he expected Labour to lose the election but was campaigning for Labour colleagues.
